Monday 30 March 2009

Death or Obedience - The Podcast Part 4

This is part 4 of the Death or Obedience Podcast. For the story behind this podcast, be sure to visit the website -

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3

This is the final part of our first visit from 2 of the local elders.

Despite previously stating that a person would not be considered an apostate for reading material critical of the Watch Tower Society's teachings, one of the elders now makes the grave comment that passing on such material does designate a person as an apostate.

I am commended for keeping my own counsel - the elder admits that I have not been guilty of discussing my concerns about the Organisation with anyone else. This is an important point to keep in mind as he later claims the opposite to be true.

The elder also contradicts himself as to whether Jehovah has been blessing individuals or groups since 33CE.


  1. I had a call from the elders like this a few years back now i just stopped going to the meetings its a haven for sexual abusers

  2. I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses. I have been reading your blog and especially listening to your recordings with some interest. However, I would like to point out that many of your posts regarding your conversations with the elders smack strongly of the Bad Reasons fallacy.

    "when one side argues badly for the truth of a proposition, and the other side uses the bad argument as a reason to conclude that the proposition is false."

    You and many of your readers seem to imply/feel that the fact that these elders may have argued poorly in defense of some of the Witnesses' doctrines and actions somehow proves that there is no valid defense in these cases.

    I could no doubt make recordings with non-denominational Christians in which I question them on, say, the Trinity and the Crusades, and then post on my blog about the poor defense they made.

    Obviously, if someone makes a poor defense of something, that does not mean that something is not true. This applies to 1914, to organization, to the UN issue, and so on. Although what the elders say might be interesting in a 'nosy' sort of way, it proves nothing at all.

  3. Firstly thanks for your comments and reading/listening to the blog.
    I notice you recognise their lack of ability to reasonably defend their doctrines and actions of the WTBTS and their Governing Body. You are correct to point out that does not necessarily mean they are wrong. However I must point out that there need only be one doctrine or declaration that needs to be proven false, and that is the teaching that JWs via the GB and Org are God's channel of communication and thus JW's are the true religion.
    Is this false because it is poorly defended? My blog serves to highlight the many problems with both the actions of JWs and their doctrines. I cannot have an exhaustive doctrinal deconstruction of everything taught ,only that which is of sufficient magnitude to register on the average JW's radar.
    I notice you analagise by using the subject of the trinity and the Crusades both of which are not connected directly to the Bible itself or absolute "truth". What does it matter if God turns out to be 3 persons within a "God family" or a what jW's believe? Is he going to destroy people for misunderstanding because of what they read in the Bible? That is a construct created by Jehovah's Witnesses themselves. And as for the Crusades no-one's arguing that it wasn't wrong, something the catholic Church has apologised for.
    However since you raise some of your own issues please read my essay on 1914, it's not false because the argument is poorly presented it's false because it's built on false information and supposition. Please read the "Gentile times reconsidered" . This book proves beyond any reasonable doubt that 607 is bogus not to even begin with the Bible "Chronology". No one in any field agrees with the 607 date in the world today. Without that 1914 is patently false and that is what WTBS is built on. Also on the other subject ,Did they become an NGO for 10 years after denouncing for many years the United Nations as being used by Satan as a tool of opposition to God's kingdom? Answer:- Yes . Again no faulty argument here, those are the facts. From that point you are free to debate and argue just why they did that. A library card? Well that makes it all the more galling so far as I'm concerned.It's akin to an old woman getting mugged for £1.50.
    And you say it proves nothing what I've done. Well it proves to me that these people do not have the answers and cannot defend their teachings or the actions of their parent organisation. They know as much or as little as anyone else who has ever picked up a Bible and claimed to speak for God.
    Regards, Matt.